Posts by Cold Steel

31

New Book: Jehovah is Jesus! Not Michael.

by Cold Steel in

dr. margaret barkers new book, the great angel: a study of israels second god, argues conclusively that yahweh, the god of israel, was not the father of jesus, but jesus christ himself.

furthermore, the belief that jehovah was gods (elyons) first son a tradition that went far back into israelite history.

it not only was known to the ancient prophets, but to the early christians and even the gnostics.

Cold Steel

<<I think the issue seems to be what is being stated is that Jesus was A son of God, implying that he was oen of many, rather than THE Son of God being being in Nature, God, a opposed to a created "son of God", like the angels. >>

Yep, but we don't know what they believe when they said that. It could be nonsense or it might be something that they understood which we don't know about today. The sonship of Yahweh is what's intriging. Yahweh was David's Lord, yet a Lord greater than He said, "Sit thou at my right hand til I make thine enemies thy footstool." If David's Lord was not Yahweh, we have a major theological problem. The early Christians pointed to Psalms 110:1-2 as evidence that Jesus was Jehovah. Yet even the Christians most often referred to Jesus as subordinate to God. Stephen saw Jesus (Jehovah) on the "right hand" of God (Elyon/Elohim). In almost every occasion they referred to Jesus as "Lord" (as Jehovah was known in the Old Testament) and God as "God". The Lord is Jesus, but the Father is God. And Jesus was "one" with the Father. That means that in all things both Jesus and the Father were of one accord. Some people believe that the term Elohim is inclusive of that oneness, being the plural form of God. And in Genesis, Elohim said, "Man has become as ONE of US."

It's very interesting.

But it's something Pastor Russell should have caught in his review of the scriptures. That he misidentified the Father as Yahweh isn't going to condemn anyone, but it means that he erred on something that was, in hindsight, pretty simple. The JWs have to either reevaluate their theology and correct their error, or they must stubbornly cling to it. If they correct it, they lose some credibility (but not as much as missing Armegeddon by a country mile on numerous occasions). I also believe them to be in error on interpreting the gathering of Israel to be spiritual rather than literal. If one examines Zachariah 12 and 14 closely, one sees that the "Jerusalem" of the last days has to be literal. But in the early 1900s, it just wasn't happening. By 1950, *poof!*, Israel was a nation again. And their enemies were "round about" just as Zachariah indicated they would be. Armegeddon will not happen to the world, but will happen to Jerusalem -- the real Jerusalem. Isaiah, in chapter 11, talks about the Lord setting his hand "a second time" to recover His people. Well, the first time was after the Babylonian conquest. When the Romans scattered them in 70 A.D., the Jews were dispersed for the second time. Now they have been gathered a second time. (And there's even a more interesting aspect to that.)

Believers in biblical prophecy should keep their eye on the Middle East. And when Gog comes down from the North, Yahweh will come to their aid. When his foot touches upon the Mount of Olives, one will say to Him, "What are these wounds in they hands?" And he will reply that He received them in the house of His friends. Then the scriptures say the land will go into mourning and lamentation. Why? Because the Jews will realize who their Messiah is. Not only that, the other nations round about will suddenly realize they were snookered by Islam, and that they will have to make major readjustments. (See chapter 14 of Zachariah). Again, Yahweh must be Jesus, because He will have wounds in His hands.

God actually addresses Gog in Ezekiel 38, so if he hasn't come yet, who is he? He is the same as "the Beast" in Revelation, the Antichrist. When he comes to power, probably in Europe, he will gather a huge army and take it down to afflict Jerusalem. By that time, the Jews will have probably built their temple, which raises the question of what happened to the Muslim Dome and mosque. If these crumble in, say, an earthquake, and the Jews build them temple in its place, then I suspect that would be why Gog would want to strike. Still, all of this continues to point to the fact that Jesus and Yahweh are the same, and that He will fill the Messianic expectations.

As BlackSheep noted, the Catholics believe that Jesus is Jehovah, but that He is not the Father. Only the modalists believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all One Being manifesting Himself as three beings. As one old pastor of mine said, "I can be a son to my father, a father to my children and a husband to my wife, all at the same time." Or, as others note, "God is like ice. It can be a solid, liquid or gas."

Yes, lots of gas in my view!

31

New Book: Jehovah is Jesus! Not Michael.

by Cold Steel in

dr. margaret barkers new book, the great angel: a study of israels second god, argues conclusively that yahweh, the god of israel, was not the father of jesus, but jesus christ himself.

furthermore, the belief that jehovah was gods (elyons) first son a tradition that went far back into israelite history.

it not only was known to the ancient prophets, but to the early christians and even the gnostics.

Cold Steel

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are many evidences of both God and the Bible. I just haven't been very impressed with the level of JW scholarship. To most casual readers of scripture, it's fairly obvious that Yahweh was Jesus. What Mrs. Barker has done was show that there is a tradition that supports what the early Christians surmised, and that is that Yahweh was the Son, not the Father. Further, that He is the God of Israel and was the one with whom Moses communed. In Psalms 110:1-2, David writes, "The Lord saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand til I make thy enemies thy footstool." Who was David's Lord? Jehovah, or Yahweh. So who told David's Lord to sit at His right hand?

When someone sits at someone's right hand, it means they are subordinate. Here the Father is telling the Son, "Sit thou at my right hand til I make thine enemies thy footstool." So if Jesus was David's Lord, then He must have been Yahweh. How Pastor Russell missed that one is beyond me. Alexander Cambell noticed it. So did Joseph Smith, Calvin, Martin Luther and many other religious minds. One reason this topic seems twisted is because of the varioius traditions that have existed throughout the years, many of them false, but some apparently true. Most scholars agree that many of the sayings in some of the Gnostic texts were actually uttered by Jesus -- this because many of the other sayings they used were documented as authentic. There's no way we have all the scriptures that the early Christians considered as authentic.

31

New Book: Jehovah is Jesus! Not Michael.

by Cold Steel in

dr. margaret barkers new book, the great angel: a study of israels second god, argues conclusively that yahweh, the god of israel, was not the father of jesus, but jesus christ himself.

furthermore, the belief that jehovah was gods (elyons) first son a tradition that went far back into israelite history.

it not only was known to the ancient prophets, but to the early christians and even the gnostics.

Cold Steel

Sorry, as stated, it was Psalms 8:5, and Barker has discussed much of what many of you are asking. Her point, though, is that traditionally there was much more to Hebrew worship than there is today, and that according to early Hebrew sources and early Christian sources, Yehweh is the Son of God, not the main God or Elyon/Elohim. I used the example of Jehovah as Judge and Jesus as judge. John said that the Father judgeth no man, but has committed all judment to the Son." (John 5:22) Jesus equated Himself with the Great I Am in front of the chief priests, who became angry to the point of wanting to stone Jesus. Even Zachariah, in Zechariah 12:10, quotes the Lord (Jehovah) as saying, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications and they shall look on me whom they have pierced..."

Again, he uses the term "me."

Now why is Jesus Jehovah? According to the scriptures, when Adam transgressed, Elyon withdrew from mankind, with whom He had been intimate. Since He could no longer deal with Mankind, an intercessor had to be found. That intercessor was Jehovah, or Jesus as He was known in mortality. It was Yehweh who appeared to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and to Moses and the rest. Yehweh was "the Lord" of Hosts, or armies, but generally He was know as "the Lord." When Jesus was born into mortality, He also was known as "Lord."

When Jesus finally redeems the world, He will present it back to His Father, redeemed and glorified. At that point, His work will be complete. Men will be redeemed and glorified.

Another example? All men will be physically resurrected. John says that when we see God "we shall be like Him for," he says, "we shall see Him as He is." Who is God? Is it the Father or the Son? In the resurrection, we are Christ's and belong to Him because of the Atonement. Jesus also gives John his vision on Patmos. But why Jesus and not Jehovah, if they are not the same?

These traditions are scattered throughout both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus was the answer. He was the mediator between Man and God. Oh, and Barker has a chapter on the Gnostic accounts of Jesus as Jehovah. Although the Gnostics missed the main points of Christianity, they had to keep it as much like traditional Christianity on the surface so as to draw away those to be deceived. They used the same doctrines of who Jesus was as the traditional Christians. Barker makes sense. In fact, there's very little if any evidence that Jesus and Yehweh are not the same.

But you decide. The very descriptions in the Old Testament that say that Jehovah will return in the New Testament in like manner say that Jesus will return. So it is He who will return to judge the quick and the dead. If Elyon has committed all the judgment to the Son, then how can Jehovah judge the Nations?

17

The JW "We don't live for dates" argument

by sabastious in

i have ran into this a few times lately.

there is so much wrong with this statement, but i want to just focus on the points that have the highest chance of setting into the jw's mind.. .

what first comes to mind is the fact that jw's have been peddling the "end of the world" being right around the corning for over 100 years.... .

Cold Steel

Okay, guys, this is finally "it."

Armegeddon will come tomorrow night just before midnight. This is NOT a joke. Because we will revert to Edenic statis, please leave your homes and remove ALL clothing. We've been told to inform you the battle will be brief. So if the police show up, simply get up on the roofs of your homes and stretch your arms up towards heaven.

You will be lifted up momentarily whilst the Earth is cleansed; then you will be let down on the new paradise to await further instructions.

Again this is NO JOKE. It's really here this time....

...or not...stay tuned for further instructions....

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Message #41223445667f

Issued: May 3, May 23, June 7, June 15, June 28, July 5

31

New Book: Jehovah is Jesus! Not Michael.

by Cold Steel in

dr. margaret barkers new book, the great angel: a study of israels second god, argues conclusively that yahweh, the god of israel, was not the father of jesus, but jesus christ himself.

furthermore, the belief that jehovah was gods (elyons) first son a tradition that went far back into israelite history.

it not only was known to the ancient prophets, but to the early christians and even the gnostics.

Cold Steel

Jesus is the only Son of God to be begotten in the flesh.

The Hebrew term "Elohim" or "Eloheim" is pluralistic. One can speak of a quorum and it's singular, yet it can have a number of members. Jesus said of the Twelve, in prayer, "That THEY may be ONE, even as WE are ONE." Here is a statement where Jesus asks his Father to bless the Twelve -- his disciples -- that they may be one in the very same sense that He and His Father are one. The word "Family" also is singular, yet it, too, can have multiple members.

In Hebrew tradition, there were "gods" (often described as "holy ones"). In the book of Psalms (see chapter 89), it says that God made man a "little lower than the Elohim," which the King James translators translated as "angels." But "Elohim" really means "gods." So God made man a little lower than the gods. The scriptures go on to say that "all of ye are gods, the sons of the Most High." And John said that while it does not appear what we shall be in the world to come, that when we see God, "we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

How much of the traditions Barker has uncovered is debatable. Some of them are most likely just that: traditions. On the other hand, it's also likely that we lost a great deal of truth in Josiah's reforms. But what is not debatable is that the early Hebrews associated Jehovah as Elyon's pre-eminent Son. Jesus also associate Himself in that role, offending the Jews by so doing, especially when He stated that "even before Abraham" he was the I Am of scripture. The Jews knew exactly what He was saying and they were incensed.

12

New Book Argues That Jehovah is Jesus

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel

Please delete this topic. Reply to mirror topic on the main page.

Thanks.

31

New Book: Jehovah is Jesus! Not Michael.

by Cold Steel in

dr. margaret barkers new book, the great angel: a study of israels second god, argues conclusively that yahweh, the god of israel, was not the father of jesus, but jesus christ himself.

furthermore, the belief that jehovah was gods (elyons) first son a tradition that went far back into israelite history.

it not only was known to the ancient prophets, but to the early christians and even the gnostics.

Cold Steel

Dr. Margaret Barker’s new book, The Great Angel: A Study of Israel’s Second God, argues conclusively that Yahweh, the God of Israel, was not the Father of Jesus, but Jesus Christ himself. Furthermore, the belief that Jehovah was God’s (Elyon’s) “first” Son — a tradition that went far back into Israelite history. It not only was known to the ancient prophets, but to the early Christians and even the Gnostics. Eusebius, writing in 320 A.D., notes that Moses “names first the Most High God, the Supreme God of the Universe, and then, as Lord, His Word, Whom we call Lord in the second degree after the God of the universe....” This second Lord (Jehovah) is “One beyond comparison with (the angels), the Head and King of the Universe, I mean to Christ Himself, as being the Only Begotten Son, was handed over that part of humanity denominated Jacob and Israel.” (Proof of the Gospel, IV.9)

“Yahweh the God of Israel,” Barker writes, “was the Son, the Christ. The Word of God, [Eusebius] says called people to worship the Father, ‘Who is Most High, far above all things that are seen, beyond the heaven and the whole begotten essence, calling them quietly and gently, and delivering them to the worship of God Most High alone, the Unbegotten and the Creator of the Universe.’” (IV.9)

Barker says “There was no doubt that Jesus was identified with the God of the Jews. The problem was: Who was this God of the Jews and what was his place in the hierarchy?” Even so, she continues, “The evidence that the first Christians identified Jesus with the God of the Jews is overwhelming; it was their customary way of reading the Old Testament. The appearances of Yahweh or the angel of Yahweh were read as manifestations of the pre-existent Christ. The Son of God was their name for Yahweh.” (Page 192)

According to Philo, Barker says the Logos, or “second God” was “the heavenly high priest. He passed through the temple veil and clothed himself in it as he did so, thus taking material form.” (Page 98) Moreover, in ancient Hebrew theology, Yahweh and its various forms are always associated with salvation. Barker views the Yahweh tradition from its earliest days in light of the angels and sons of God, Yahweh being the first and by far the preeminent of the sons of Elyon.

On the book’s back cover, the synopsis reads: “What did ‘Son of God,’ ‘Messiah,’ and ‘Lord’ mean to the first Christians when they used these words to describe their beliefs about Jesus? In this groundbraking, clearly written book, Margaret Barker goes against protocol and treats these three titles collectively.” It adds: “Barker claims that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic and that the roots of Christian Trinitarian theology lie in pre-Christian Palestinian belief about the angels — a belief derived from the ancient religion of Israel in which there was a High God and several Sons of God. Yahweh was a Son of God, manifested on Earth in human form…. Jesus was a manifestation of Yahweh, acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah, and Lord.” That Jesus was more than an angel and preeminent in the Sons of God, being the Only Begotten, fits squarely with Old Testament scripture in which Yahweh and Elyon were One in Purpose, but separate entities.

Steve Smoot reviewed her book on Amazon.com and reported: “The basic conclusion of Ms. Barker is that the earliest Hebrews, including the patriarchs and fathers of Israel, worshiped Yahweh or Jehovah as Lord of Israel and Elohim as Almighty God the Creator. She contends, correctly in my opinion, that the two were distinct and separate beings, with Yahweh being one of seventy sons of Elohim - who were all godly like Elohim - who ruled over Israel. She also contends, once again correctly, that Jesus was not God Almighty - Elohim - manifest in the flesh, but instead the God Yahweh. She further contends that the history and religion of the Henotheistic Hebrews was whitewashed into a Monotheistic faith by king Josiah around 621 B.C. in order to further distance himself and his people from the Polytheistic Gentiles that were the Babylonians. And that more whitewashing occurred when the Greek Catholic Fathers wished to portray Jesus as God the Father in order to placate the Greek and Roman Christians and make themselves Monotheistic. … Five stars!!!!”

Dr. Barker is a highly praised Methodist scholar (not Mormon, as some have speculated). Her research flies in the face of Jehovah’s Witness belief that Jehovah is God the Father, not Jesus. (Witnesses confuse Jesus with Michael, the archangel, which was a rather bizarre assumption to make in the beginning). Old Testament writers talk about Jehovah being Savior and Judge, while New Testament writers make the same correlations with Jesus. “For the Father judgeth no man,” wrote John, “but has committed all judgment to the Son.”

This groundbreaking research seems to shatter the very basis of JW theology. But will the Witnesses change that theology to remain consistent with the scriptures, or will they stubbornly hold to their present beliefs based on their outdated and limited exegesis of biblical scriptures?

12

New Book Argues That Jehovah is Jesus

by Cold Steel in

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Cold Steel